Morning: Psalm 84:1-12
2 Samuel 12:1-14
Acts 19:21-41
Mark 9:14-29
Evening: Psalm 25:1-22
I commend Acts reading to you all today. Paul and his companions are preaching the Way of Jesus in Macedonia, against other gods, and business is way down for all the makers of the silver idols of Artemis, a pagan god. And they're not happy. Diverting customers to Jesus away from the worship of Artemis, they've seen their long-standing business go down the tubes. There's a motive for them propping up this religion: money, power and a comfy lifestyle. They take action, hauling the Jesus believers into the consul, and not just a little commotion ensues. The city is "in confusion," over the conflict. "... some were shouting one thing, some another; for the assembly was in confusion, and most of them did not know why they had come together." (v.32).
I'm sorry, at the risk of getting into the state of affairs in the PC(USA) again, and my own standing in it, this reminds me of the very public wrangling in our denomination, when Presbytery assemblies are thrown into confusion over the issue of business in our denomination. I see this issue rooted in idolatry.
In our presbytery, there are some congregations among us are trying to follow "The Way," a narrow path unencumbered by bureaucracy, religious pluralism, and crumbling standards, to be accused of everything under the sun and outshouted in the assembly by those who are trying to protect the "business" of the denomination. It's all being done under the guise of protecting the peace, unity and purity of the church. Face it, business in the PC(USA) is way down: shrinking numbers and treasuries are a threat to those who have been part of this long-standing business. I'm not saying the business of the PC(USA) is to promote worship of other gods - we are rooted in Christ alone - but other gods seem to have crept into our practices. Property, rules, tradition, polity, positions, the PUP report...are these hand-hewn idols for some?
My congregation could care less about this confusion, as we are a bunch of joyfully undisciplined, disordered, big hearted lovers of Jesus, who are connected with the people Jesus loves and came to serve. They are not connected to the PC(USA) in spirit or heart, which is probably a big disappointment to the denomination's officials, and certainly a threat to me. For I have been told I am to try and make good Presbyterians out of them, and engage them in the Presbytery's assembly, so that they will also come to understand and protect the denomination's peace, unity and purity. But they are indifferent to arguing, and too busy praying, doing ministry, surviving, spreading the good news, doing Bible study, building Habitat houses, finding our missional identity in the greater church. Frankly, I do not want to be part of the diversion away from the "business" of the Spirit's move on us right now. I'm sure I will take some flack for that in the assembly, but I'm tired, and have only so much energy to carry on in my call to follow Jesus at SBPC.
In the meantime, no one from the presbytery has volunteered to come to pray with us, to worship with us, or share Christ with us. To discover the brokenness that exists in our neighborhoods, and ask how can we help you do ministry better? If someone comes, we do not want to talk about the condition of the PC(USA) right now or learn ways to save the business. We will pray and we're open to ways we can truly reach out to the lost in the name of Jesus Christ alone.
As Jesus told the disciples in the gospel today, some evil spirits can only come out through prayer. Let us pray.
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30 comments:
Amen, Pastor Lyn.
Lyndon Sparling-Herring
Your description of the SBPC congregation made me giggle with joy. I think that being "a bunch of joyfully undisciplined, disordered, big hearted lovers of Jesus, who are connected with the people Jesus loves and came to serve" is what feeds our souls. There are no perfect churches, denominations, or Christians. As long as we listen to the Holy Spirit, try to emulate Jesus, and work to walk in The Light and witness to others - I believe that we are doing what God wants for his universal church.
Jan Sparling-Herring
Amen sister and brother Sparling-Herring. Love you guys!
Lyn,
Though I'm not in that assembly with you any longer, it still pains me to read your characterization of it. It's full of inaccuracies and it projects really bad motives onto people of good Christian character. This is hard, because I know your motives are good, that you desire faithfulness and a bold witness to the gospel. Why can't you assume the same about the motives of your colleagues, your fellow Christians, when it comes to these matters of property and polity and theology?
You mean to tell me that, in all the presbytery, there are only a few churches seeking to follow "the way?" You mean to tell me that the rest of it is bogged down in bureaucracy and business? You mean to tell me that the years-long Peace, Unity, and Purity process was all a "guise?" Come on. I know you don't believe those things. If you did, why would you wish to remain a member of that body?
That your congregation is full of people who don't define themselves first and foremost as Presbyterians is great; we're all Christians first. Presbyterian refers to a system of governance, a system who's rules and processes are laced with theology. But must it be the case that everything PC (USA) outside of South Broadland is corrupt? Forgive me, but that's a very uncharitable--even arrogant--view of your brothers and sisters in Christ.
I still count myself among those brothers and sisters. Like I did when you signed the ad after the General Assembly, I'm calling on you to ask you why I shouldn't feel completely demeaned by your depiction of the church, the people of the PC (USA).
Can we all be as bad as that?
Lyn,
Are you requesting someone to visit your congregation and session for prayer and conversation? If you have already requested this, forgive me for failing to respond; I have not received such a request to my knowledge. If you do wish this to happen, please feel free to contact me. My phone number, along with those of the members of the presbytery staff, are in the presbytery directory.
Brian Ellison
Committee on Ministry
I am just tired, folks. The emotional drain of facing the issues in this denomination, watching people argue and get hurt, coupled with the big needs of our local congregations, are just overwhelming sometimes. I am angry that I don't feel connected when I need to be, have tried to be. I stay connected with the greater church outside the denomination to stay sane and encouraged, and gain perspective. I do not believe everything inside the PC(USA) is corrupt or evil - I never said so. I was commenting on this latest tactic in our Presbyteries that have stunned me. All I have experienced since ordination about things PC(USA) are in this Presbytery, which is notoriously, contentious.
I am gun shy and suspicious, I admit. I have recently been in contact with another departing church in the PC(USA) in another presbytery who has been hurt deeply and completely dismayed by the actions of their presbytery officials, who promised graceful separation, showed forbearance and kindness up front, and then accused them of lies and misconduct before their members immediately after a congregational vote to separate. They were placed under an AC as well. It sounded all too familiar, and brought back the pain I feel in our Presbytery. I am quite aware that each church has it's own issues as far as the denomination is concerned, and I don't completely agree with the churches who are requesting transfer. I know the polity and business of the denomination is important, but these tactics bother me.
I do not think there are just a few churches following Jesus - we are all trying to do so and I said so in my post: Christ is at the center. I love the Presbyterian theology - rooted in grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone. But I honestly believe some have put our polity and rules, and the PUP report before real relationships, especially when conflicts arise. Some beat up people who are not in agreement with where the PC(USA) is headed. I have watched and heard it happen, over and over, and I'm tired.
To begin building trust in the midst of conflict is an uphill journey. Trust involves being present to each other in word and deed and service, because we care about each other, not to get people to agree with us.
Brian, I have not invited anyone from Presbytery to SBPC - you offered to come if I did, and thank you for that. I had actually hoped by now someone on your end would have initiated the desire to come and talk to us, knowing our concerns. I have always appreciated Prince Hamlet's care for me as a person, even though we disagree on this issue. He has initiated and sustained a friendship with me personally in spite of this. I appreciate that, Rocky. I don't see that attitude with the presbytery right now toward those who are disenfranchised, hurt,confused or angry.
I believe in peace, unity and purity in the church. I don't think the PUP report was a guise; it was a well-meaning, Spirit-led effort to address a way Presbyterians can discern and get along. But it has sometimes been used as a weapon against those who have trouble with the potential results of its use. As Prince Hamlet noted, my allegiance is to the peace, unity and purity of the universal church first. There are still so many issues the PUP report did not solve for us, and even created, from many people's point of view. Again, it's a human-hewn document that can't be the silver bullet for what ails us. Can I not in good conscience, point out my issues with it publicly as those who have who support it 100% have done?
My congregation is not perfect, nor the only one who "gets it." Yes, that would be arrogant. Sorry if it sounded like that. I do believe the PC(USA) is in disarray, and am tired of the conservatives getting all the blame for that. I'm in it because of my call and it is my jurisdiction. But I'm worn out and discouraged.
Lyn wrote:
"Brian, I have not invited anyone from Presbytery to SBPC - you offered to come if I did, and thank you for that. I had actually hoped by now someone on your end would have initiated the desire to come and talk to us, knowing our concerns."
Lyn,
Actually, I do not know of your Session's having any concerns. Again, if there are any communications with the presbytery that I have missed, I apologize. To the best of my knowledge, we have not received any indication that South Broadland has concerns calling for involvement by the presbytery. But again, I would be very glad to come--to talk, to pray, to break bread with the sisters and brothers, there, if this is the body's will. Again, a phone call or note to me would get that ball rolling.
Lyn, if I may make a personal statement, also borne of our personal relationship: I understand that you are tired and frustrated, as you say. If it is exhaustion, as you are suggesting, that is causing you to make comments in a public forum that call into question the motives and, indeed, integrity of your fellow presbyters, then may I that you wait until you are feeling less "angry" and "emotionally drained" and "overwhelmed" before trying to assess and make comment on our ministry. Perhaps in your "worn out" and "discouraged" state you are misjudging the intent and actual substance of your colleagues' work. We, like you, are seeking to serve Christ and the Church universal. We, like you, serve churches full of "big hearted lovers of Jesus." And we, by God's grace, have been called to serve together.
"All I have experienced since ordination about things PC(USA) are in this Presbytery, which is notoriously, contentious."
From what I've read here the last couple of months, it sounds like (with the exception of Prince Hamlet) you need to hang out with different people in your area.
Could it be that God has other plans for South Broadland than following PC USA?
Let them take the land - the building - GOD will provide for South Broadland!
Would that really be so terrible? PC USA should be more concerned with SOULS than the land or the building! I believe they already know that - problem is, they don't care.
"They?" Who are "They?"
South Broadland is as much the PC (USA) as any phantom "they" you might think of.
"They" are individual forces, in this case within PC USA, that lift polity above God. Forces that consider following politics and following MANMADE RULES more important than a close relationship with God.
"They" are individuals more concerned with structuring sentences and "PUP" nonsense over serving and feeding the people, both literally and spiritually.
"They" are people who follow politics first, God and GOD'S WILL second. "They" are people who are more concerned about land rights and ownership of buildings over the lives and salavation of GOD's people.
"They" lost sight of the prize long ago. All in the name of politics... pride... ownership... power.... MONEY...
"Not Price Hamlet" - you already knew who "They" were.
In the interest of transparency and the truth, why don't you tell us who some of them are. You've described a really bad type of person, but it's just a type--a phantom stereotype with no name.
You've described the monster in The Layman's closet; do you actually know any of these people? Have you engaged with them for the sake of the gospel and the good of the church? Or is it easier to throw stones at their shadow?
"do you actually know any of these people? Have you engaged with them for the sake of the gospel and the good of the church? Or is it easier to throw stones at their shadow?"
There is no need to meet these people personally - their actions speak volumes, fruits of their labor abound!
Matthew 7:19-21 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
If you want to call that throwing stones, "Not Price Hamlet," ... if the shoe fits.
You're missing the point. I'm asking you to indicate specific actions of individuals, and all you're doing is railing against some vague characterization.
Christian conversations have to be grounded in truth, but your indignation is based largely on exaggerations. That makes great blog fodder, but nothing will ever get better that way.
There's nothing vague about it. Fact is, PC USA has gotten way to big for their britches, as have ALL religions. It isn't about God any longer, God is used as a front for power hungry, archaic religious groups who are more concerned in keeping their PUP and their minions in order rather than their hearts.
Unfortunately, that goes deep into the heirarchy of these ORGANIZATIONS. You want names? I have no names - do you not have better discernment than to know by the fruits of their labor who is following God for righteous reasons and who is not?
PC USA, as ALL denominations - ALL INDIVIDUALS - need to be searching their hearts to ascertain their connectedness with God, their readiness for the next phase, instead of dallying with all the manmade nonsense we've been asked to swallow, and, YES TO EVEN OBEY. ??? Wow! The audacity in that alone is stunning!
Pastor Lyn, as probably the whole of South Broadland, is feeling bullied and pushed around by PC. Evidently, Pastor Lyn has observed - let's call it what it is - certain types of persecution and unfairness to other Christ Followers. And I say WAY TO GO, PASTOR LYN! STAND YOUR GROUND! I believe God expects you to take up for your brothers and sisters who are being treated unjustly! Step out from under that heavy, burdensome load of baloney, and follow God however, wherever HE - GOD ALONE - leads South Broadland.
PC USA needs to allow individual churches to FOLLOW GOD AS THEY ARE LED. Isn't that what it's all about to start with? So what's your beef, "Not Price Hamlet"?
You think an organization should be able to tell others how they should worship - how they should believe? "IF YOU DON'T DO THIS, THIS WAY, AND FOLLOW THE 'PUP,' THIS WAY, AND READ THIS, AND DO THAT" .... What's next? What if PC USA says we should all burn down our homes? Follow someone besides our God? Shame on you.
No, you obviously agree with PC USA, that if individual churches do not follow how "THEY" want them to follow, you'll take away their church building - take away their land -everything they have worked so hard to build - the whole while giving money to PC USA!! All in the name of GOD??
Well, I don't buy it for a second. You need to get back to the basics in the bible and get your nose out of those dusty, religious, manmade rags.
Everything I've sad is grounded in truth. All you have to do is give your bible a little more attention - it's all there.
Wow.
The PC (USA) doesn't tell churches what to do. The PC (USA) is the churches.
Pastor Lyn belongs to a presbytery committee that does important ministry work together on behalf of the whole PC (USA). Does that make her one of the "they?" who are telling people what to do?
Your insistence that people's "fruit" will reveal their heart, while being Biblical in origin, is used as an un-Biblical club to whallop people who disagree with you. It's telling that you can't grant the least bit of integrity to the men and women in the PC (USA), but instead have to hammer them as Godless, power-hungry, tyrants.
That says a lot more about you then it does about them.
Again -- WHAT'S YOUR BEEF? Do you not believe God can lead individuals to righteousness all by himself?
Do you really believe God needs HELP in administering to his people? In leading them on to the correct path?
Do you believe individuals need a liason via PC USA, or for that matter any other ORGANIZATION, in order to have a close relationship with our Lord?
Man is infallible - EVERY TIME - God is not.
"Important ministry work on behalf of PC USA"? Is there really anthing more important than leading souls to righteousness, as Pastor Lyn is obviously trying to do.
If churches "are the PC USA," then where is the threat of losing one's church? What weight does an AC carry? Who would enforce an AC? The congregants? I think not.
Are you insisting the bible is wrong in stating that we will know people by their "FRUITS"?
"It's telling that you can't grant the least bit of integrity to the men and women in the PC (USA), but instead have to hammer them as Godless, power-hungry, tyrants."
I'm not in the "granting integrity" business - I try leaving that to God, as only he knows the truth and only he is good.
Mark 10:18 "No one is good—except God alone."
We are told to show mercy to others as God daily shows us. Otherwise, one can only go by the "FRUITS" of a man's labor (which you strangely take offense to) as an INDICATION of their righteousness or their good or bad intent.
You are free to disagree with me. And I would hardly call stating one's beliefs on a blog an "unbiblical club to wallop" people with. But that obviously made you feel better, "Not Price Hamlet," and if it looks like a tyrant - acts like a tyrant - smells like a tyrant --- chances are very good you have a tyrant on your hands.
Anonymous, I think one of "Not Prince Hamlet"'s points is that you're coming off looking far more unfaithful and far more like a tyrant than the PCUSA. Your inability to speak in specifics suggests that you're ranting against a chimera of your own creation, not against something actually unfaithful about the PCUSA. And your ad hominem attacks about an unsubstantiated and undefined foe don't lend much credence either.
What's the beef? Who is it in the PCUSA that is attacking Pastor Lyn, or South Broadland, or anyone?
Is it that no one from the denomination has come to visit? Has anyone ASKED for a visit? Has anyone communicated any concerns, ideas, thoughts, compassion, prayers, desires with anyone at the denomination? I don't know the answer to this, but that's a first question to ask.
Is it that people at South Broadland aren't really Presbyterian in polity and theology? I doubt this is true, since I believe both Pastor Lyn and many if not most in her church are solidly reformed in their theology and bound by the spirit of our polity. But if not, there are other expressions of the Christian Church available to any member or minister whose conscience doesn't allow them to be bound by the connectional, convenental nature of our polity. In the end, your church, like every PCUSA church, is an instrument of the mission of the PCUSA, not a congregation unto itself.
What is it? Is it concern that brothers and sisters in the church--pastors and elders--are abandoning their traditional rights of voting, and when their beliefs demand it, using petition, dissent and the like to change and advocate within the church, and, instead of withdrawling peaceably to another communion, have decided to try to rend apart this one? (I speak here specifically about the NWAC churches, and that strategy document that spreads lies about their brothers and sisters in the PCUSA--to the extent that some question whether presbytery leaders are even Christian!).
What is the deal? What specifically is the beef? With whom? Staff? Liberals? A specific movement?
Who is the tyrant? What specifically is being done that is contrary to the principles of the church or the scriptures?
If your argument is that God alone is Lord of the Conscience; that God alone is Lord of the church, even the PCUSA, then you are right on. You don't have anyone quibbling with you about that. But that does not a libertine stance permit, nor would that be biblical....
God calls us together and around the same table, and calls us the church.
"There is one church. As the bible speaks of the one body which is the Church living under the one Spirit of God known through Christ, it reminds us that we have 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all.' (Ephesians 4:5-6) Visible oneness, by which a diversity of persons, gifts, and understandings is brought together, is an important sign of the unity of God's people. It is also a means by which that unity is achieved. Further, while divisions into different denominations do not destroy this unity, they do obscure it for both the Church and the world. The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), affirming its historical continuity with the whole Church of Jesus Christ, is committed to the reduction of the obscurity and is willing to seek and to maintain communion and community with all other branches of the one, catholic Church" PCUSA Book of Order G-4.0202 and G-4.0203
Once again, you've avoided the hard questions. Are you INCAPABLE of answering the questions:
"Do you not believe God can lead individuals to righteousness all by himself?
Do you really believe God needs HELP in administering to his people? In leading them on to the correct path?
Do you believe individuals need a liason via PC USA, or for that matter any other ORGANIZATION, in order to have a close relationship with our Lord?
Is there really anthing more important than leading souls to righteousness?
If churches "are the PC USA," then where is the threat of losing one's church? What weight does an AC carry? Who would enforce an AC? The congregants?"
No, you WILL NOT answer these questions, instead you refer to political jibberish, when what is called for are heartfelt, down to earth answers - and would a meeting with the church be so difficult, given the circumstances?
God calls HIS PEOPLE to the church, not his polititians, at which you've become so wrapped up.
And I asked you first, WHAT'S YOUR BEEF? Do you believe people should be led by MEN instead of by GOD? You call that
I asked you first, WHAT'S YOUR BEEF? Do you believe people should be led by MEN instead of by GOD? Call that "libertine" if you'd like, I call it following the bible.
Please be careful. There are many people posting here, many who claim the title "anonymous." You asked What's the beef of Not Prince Hamlet, not myself. My use of that phrase was rhetorical...
God needs nothing to work with us. But Presbyterians are convinced that God works through the church, that we hear the workings of the Spirit and the Word of God better in communities, the congregation and the various bodies of the church--presbyteries, synods, general assemblies. Presbyterian polity binds us together this way because we are convinced that this is how God wants us to work together, and how we best hear God's Word to us.
Again, if you aren't convinced of that, there are other more congregational expressions of the Body of Christ out there for you. But reformed bodies believe that some communion such as the one we find ourselves in is essential for discerning God's word for us, and essential for expressing that which God desires for the whole catholic church.
There are manifold scriptural and confessional foundations to this, from the Acts, to the Pauline writings, to the Westminster Standards, if you want to go that far. The idea that someone can claim God alone speaking to me so I can buck the system that God has established is libertine. Presbyterians are bound together, in part, because we're convinced that God speaks through this system we're in together, somehow. And that this church of ours is essential for supporting one another as we lead souls into righteousness....
I also see you're fleshing out just a bit more what your particular beef might be, mentioning for the first time an "AC," which I can only assume is the Administrative Commission that has been charged to act on Presbytery's behalf in dealing with churches who are seeking separation from the PCUSA. I'm sure if you want more dialogue about that AC, you could contact anyone at Presbytery, or your pastor, to describe its foundations, intent, and functioning.
I confess to not understanding, at all, most of this, including:
No, you WILL NOT answer these questions, instead you refer to political jibberish, when what is called for are heartfelt, down to earth answers - and would a meeting with the church be so difficult, given the circumstances?
God calls HIS PEOPLE to the church, not his polititians, at which you've become so wrapped up.
The answers given you don't seem to like. Of course God alone is able to work with each individual heart; Presbyterian theology says nothing different, nor is it being challenged. BUT, and this is the part you're seeming to miss, Presbyterians, as Presbyterians, think that God calls us together, that we hear God better when together, and that this is larger than the individual congregation.
Sorry, that's Presbyterian Polity 101.
And I still miss what the deal is about a "meeting with the church." Who are you talking about? The presbytery, in its COM representatives and/or staff members, would visit ANY church that asks for a meeting. A church, its pastor, or members need to ask that directly of them.
Or are you looking for other churches/pastors to meet with a local church?
Or are you talking about the whole church? Well, that's what presbyteries, synods, and General Assemblies are supposed to be.
None of that is jibberish, my brother or sister. Nor is it political. Calling it either doesn't make it so, but I'm willing for further conversation about how you think it is either. Perhaps you can distinguish for me who is a "politician" and who is "His People?"
This is part of what Not Prince Hamlet challenged Pastor Lyn on: the unfounded character attacks on other presbyterian pastors and elder commissioners. She cleaned up some of that, and I for one am glad she did so. It is dangerous to just assert that people you disagree with--whether on a particular theological matter or on a practical matter--in the church isn't a Christian, or isn't trying to be faithful to the God they know and love through Jesus Christ our Lord.
And, frankly, this is one of the things that is tearing this communion apart--not politicians, not people who don't love the Lord, not people who listen to themselves or ostensible "politicians" above listening to God, but people who fail to see the brother or sister with whom they disagree as a fellow disciple of the one Triune God.
I want to add one more thing:
Lost in the recent chatter is the report of the presbytery's vision committee, which has as its aim the very things you seem to be wanting: focusing our communities on our local congregational work of spreading Christ the Word made flesh in our communities, and finding ways to help our presbytery facilitate that in the local churches.
Have you read that vision report?
Do you not think that this is the goal and aim of the presbytery, or larger governing bodies?
"BUT, and this is the part you're seeming to miss, Presbyterians, as Presbyterians, think that God calls us together, that we hear God better when together, and that this is larger than the individual congregation.
Sorry, that's Presbyterian Polity 101."
Exactly my point - my original post suggests that perhaps God is calling South Broadland away from "Presbyterian Polity," altogether. Perhaps God has something much bigger in mind for Southbroadland than any political body or organization could imagine.
To ignore that possibility, particularly given the current circumstances, would be ignoring a chance for God's will to be done.
"... this is one of the things that is tearing this communion apart--not politicians, not people who don't love the Lord, not people who listen to themselves or ostensible 'politicians' above listening to God, but people who fail to see the brother or sister with whom they disagree as a fellow disciple of the one Triune God."
A true brother or sister would not impose the will of an organization upon individual congregations. True brothers and sisters would not unjustly treat fellow congregants in the manner described to us by Pastor Lyn, threatening to take their building, their land.
Thanks to anonymous' (one of you) posting today that read:
"It is dangerous to just assert that people you disagree with--whether on a particular theological matter or on a practical matter--in the church isn't a Christian, or isn't trying to be faithful to the God they know and love through Jesus Christ our Lord.
And, frankly, this is one of the things that is tearing this communion apart--not politicians, not people who don't love the Lord, not people who listen to themselves or ostensible "politicians" above listening to God, but people who fail to see the brother or sister with whom they disagree as a fellow disciple of the one Triune God."
I completely concur! Every one of us has the thumb print of God on us - and we need to see each other as Christ sees us. That plus being willing to pick up the phone, break bread, pray together and get to know these brothers and sisters in real relationship. That we disagree is obvious and Christians have always disagreed about something. These disagreements hurt. But we have the Word of God, the Confessions and a polity based on the Word that can be restorative and a living Lord that is Lord of relationships. If we engaged all of this in prayer and with courage, we'd learn how to care for each other and love the world better. As for me, when I'm hurt I need more love than ever. And when we're bad, we need more grace than ever.
Exactly my point - my original post suggests that perhaps God is calling South Broadland away from "Presbyterian Polity," altogether. Perhaps God has something much bigger in mind for Southbroadland than any political body or organization could imagine.
Then you would cease to be Presbtyerian, and the Presbyterian church would need to have some other expression of its faith and theology where you are.
If you aren't Presbyterian any longer, or perhaps never have been, then you need to find a place where you can explore Christianity in a healthy way for you. You should find that place, or start it up on your own.
But other brothers and sisters in your community are presbyterian, belong to a larger community of believers, and the larger church will continue to minister to them. No act of a majority can make even one person leave against their will, and it would be an injustice to try to do so.
The church you are in is a Presbyterian Church, created by the denomination as an expression of its theology and polity. It was supported by individuals who contributed to that denomination through the local church as a local unit of mission for the PCUSA (or PCUS or UPCUSA, whichever South and Broadland churches were). If you, or even a lot of you, aren't in agreement with the theology or polity of that church, why are you still there?
It is my prayer and hope that you are indeed nourished and fed by the faith known in the PCUSA. I think you are. I believe Lyn is. The PCUSA believes we are bound together freely, and that if we can't bear to be together, then we should peaceably withdrawal. I think God brings us together for a reason, and that we gain so much from being together. But those who can't be together need to find a place where they can thrive under God's word. But that's an individual decision, or a group's decision. The church itself, well, that's a larger decision made by the presbytery....
To ignore that possibility, particularly given the current circumstances, would be ignoring a chance for God's will to be done.
The church is not ignoring that possibility. It has the responsibility to address it, while also maintaining its theology and identity and ministry for other churches in the region and its responsibility for its form of theology and ministry in the area presently served by SBPC.
A true brother or sister would not impose the will of an organization upon individual congregations. True brothers and sisters would not unjustly treat fellow congregants in the manner described to us by Pastor Lyn, threatening to take their building, their land.
Ok, this is where I'd suggest you engage other people in dialogue, perhaps the presbytery staff or presbytery COM.
If Pastor Lyn described things in those terms, then she has mischaracterized the nature of our church, or perhaps the nature of our church isn't something that you can abide by. Local buildings are held in trust for the denomination. Again, an expression of something larger than the local congregation. The one working to "take" the land is not the Presbytery. The actions of the presbytery in this case, as I see it, are not "unjust." They are doing everything they can do to be as just and loving as they can be, to imitate the love of Christ to all members of the particular churches in question, in the midst of horrible things said about them, their faith, their convictions....
I completely concur! Every one of us has the thumb print of God on us - and we need to see each other as Christ sees us. That plus being willing to pick up the phone, break bread, pray together and get to know these brothers and sisters in real relationship. That we disagree is obvious and Christians have always disagreed about something. These disagreements hurt. But we have the Word of God, the Confessions and a polity based on the Word that can be restorative and a living Lord that is Lord of relationships. If we engaged all of this in prayer and with courage, we'd learn how to care for each other and love the world better. As for me, when I'm hurt I need more love than ever. And when we're bad, we need more grace than ever.
Thanks, Pastor Lyn. I concur with your broad post. I'm convinced that almost everyone in the PCUSA would agree with what you're written here.
The church is its members (that was Not Prince Hamlet's point), brought together by God and seeking to follow God through following Christ. The PCUSA is something larger that we all participate in, that we're all a part of. We vote through our representatives, and before that we debate and pray and worship and serve together, then we seek the mind of Christ and we live with what we decide until we seek it again. And we believe that larger governing bodies have the responsibility to adjudicate differences in the lower ones--which is what's going on right now in the Presbytery, and in every Presbytery--and has been going on for decades.
I don't discount that God is doing what God is doing. I believe God to be moving quite well within the PCUSA. I also don't discount that God moves--quite well--outside of the church I know as the PCUSA. Thanks be to God for that...
"Have you read that vision report?"
I could care less about a "Vision Report." South Broadland needs GOD's help - ALONE - as do other members of the PC USA - as do all people who follow Jesus Christ.
I repeat, PC USA has become an archaic institution, and has been losing individuals for a long time now. Evidently, that doesn't concern the organization enough to rethink or drastically change the structure. You still find them bullying congregations, which began this whole diatribe, which is exactly what it has become.
Frankly, the more I read your posts, the less and less I respect I have for PC USA and the more grounded I am in believeing it is all political. Step back and listen to yourself! No where in the bible will you find talk of "synods" or "general assemblies" or "PUP" or "vision reports"! It is NONSENSE, and yes - JIBBERISH - manmade polity concerned with power, control, position, and prestige.
I'm truly sorry this offends you, but let's call it what it is - let's be honest here.
We "hear God together better"?
I suggest YOUR POINT OF VIEW is we hear God perfectly well -- as long as we follow the PC USA's direction.
I'm entitled to these beliefs, as you are to your beliefs. I know where my beliefs are founded and my heart is clear.
Call me a "tyrant" - oh yeah, you already did - call me a "libertine" - I believe you called me that too, call me "unbiblical" - I propose that South Broadland - and ANY congregation - would be much better off stepping out in faith - faith in God and where God could take them, were they free from the compounds and rules imposed by PC USA.
I won't even get into how other congregations are being treated.
Please again be careful. I never called you or anyone a tyrant or unbiblical. I warned against a libertine stance, not calling what you were advocating such.
Sorry you are so hurt. I still think you are quite misplaced, exceptionally misguided, and unfaithful to your brothers and sisters in your denomination, and in your comments you are harming both your local church and the larger body of Christ. You might think you're helping, but I don't see it...
But may God's peace abide with you...
I trust that those who know me know that I am a Presbyterian and abide by the polity and confessions of the denomination. I take my vows seriously as I have said. I regret any misunderstandings over my comments about the recent actions by presbytery regarding 2 of our churches choosing to withdraw from the PC(USA). Part of the consequences of churches withdrawing surrounds the property. I completely understand that. Like it or not, our polity makes it clear that the property is held in trust for the benefit of the PC(USA), and this needs to be resolved when a church leaves us. That's a primary and important work for Presbytery officials, AC's etc. to hammer out. It's being hammered out all over the land right now as more churches are leaving.
After the June Presbytery meeting, I did explain this to our session, since many of our newer members are not Presbyterian before joining us. And many were enlightened and some disturbed by this, among them "anonymous," I assume. Nevertheless, we are a Presbyterian church and this is the deal.
My concern is not this polity issue. My concern is how those churches were treated on the floor, the tactics used, and the ramifications for all churches struggling with matters PC(USA). My concern is over why members of council were voted out of the room when these tactics were planned, with no provision for that as I can see. My concern is for what seemed an unsafe place to deliberate, as Presbyterians should be able to do in love and truth. My concern is the confusion the ordeal raised in those gathered. My commissioners are new Presbyterians, learning what it means to be in a connected, representative form of government, and were dismayed by the meeting's tone and hostility. They had many questions after this meeting that I tried to answer correctly, about polity. But frankly as I've said I too was dismayed.They heard that from em as well.
I live in 2 worlds sometimes, serving two separate bodies: that of the Presbytery and that of the local church. We can talk about being one in Christ, but that's easier said than done with new believers, new Presbyterians and complicated polity. Add to that the diversity at SBPC, in a denomination that is over 98% caucasian. Sometimes certain actions seem oppressive to them; context can be everything.
Bear with us everyone. And to my sisters and brothers in Christ at SBPC, bear with me as we continue to learn how to love and serve as faithful Christians AND Presbyterians, as our conscience is obedient to the Word.
Thanks for your further comments, Lyn. I am sure that your congregation members and session are thankful for your ability to teach them the nature of our connectional system when it comes to such things as property in these disputes.
My concern is not this polity issue. My concern is how those churches were treated on the floor, the tactics used, and the ramifications for all churches struggling with matters PC(USA).
The biggest problem was confusion over roberts rules, particularly when someone chose to introduce a substitute motion immediately. Our commissioners--and too often our pastors--are not well versed in roberts rules, and our moderator, bless her heart, wasn't well equipped for navigating that mess.
But the problem on the floor wasn't the inability for anyone to speak. All commissioners and pastors had the floor, and members of the churches who the motion was originally to address availed themselves of the floor, repeatedly, to present their case. On the whole, they were treated respectfully in that regard.
I'm not sure what other tactics you speak of that cause you concern...
My concern is over why members of council were voted out of the room when these tactics were planned, with no provision for that as I can see.
I think this not a completely accurate account of what happened at council, and I think the details and context are important. Again, an area where an invitation to COM or to presbytery staff or to council moderators might be a place where you can get a different perspective than the one you seem to have heard.
My concern is for what seemed an unsafe place to deliberate, as Presbyterians should be able to do in love and truth. My concern is the confusion the ordeal raised in those gathered. My commissioners are new Presbyterians, learning what it means to be in a connected, representative form of government, and were dismayed by the meeting's tone and hostility. They had many questions after this meeting that I tried to answer correctly, about polity. But frankly as I've said I too was dismayed.They heard that from em as well.
I mourn for most of this as well. As you might have guessed, I think the tone and hostility of which you speak was set mainly by the busloads of people who were present, not by the commissioners and pastors trying to deliberate. I think a major source for the confusion--which didn't help--was the substitute motion, and the lack of education of our commissioners, which all of our pastors and churches bear responsibility for.
But I disagree with calling it an unsafe place to deliberate, for either side...
I live in 2 worlds sometimes, serving two separate bodies: that of the Presbytery and that of the local church. We can talk about being one in Christ, but that's easier said than done with new believers, new Presbyterians and complicated polity. Add to that the diversity at SBPC, in a denomination that is over 98% caucasian. Sometimes certain actions seem oppressive to them; context can be everything.
Bear with us everyone. And to my sisters and brothers in Christ at SBPC, bear with me as we continue to learn how to love and serve as faithful Christians AND Presbyterians, as our conscience is obedient to the Word.
Amen.
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